and on the outlier, he does want them to fight the insurgency, which he says in pakistan. he hopes the americans will be able to their special operation missions to get the insurgency, the taliban that won't talk. and he says most of those are actually across the border. he also mentioned he will talk about the immunity, that he needs to talk to the afghan people. but in the end, it's the afghan people who are going to decide whether or not they will be willing to give the american troops that immunity. >> the u.s. government insisted both starting with leaks and then publicly from the white house and then personally from the president today that there will be zero troops if there isn't an immunity deal. do you get the sense that president karzai believes that, or does he think that this is something that can be bargained? >> i do believe that president karzai believes that. people around him may not believe that. in fact, his chief of staff earl yes said america needs afghanistan more than afghanistan needs america, which many of us here would say that's not the case. if